Balance and ideas

[Ullz]

Scum:

Willoughby - Blocker (6 JS-points). But Marianne Dashwood will "see" all his actions without him knowing this and without her knowing who's doing it all. This will be a mechanism and not an "action" and will therefore not be able to be redirected.

Wickham - Redirector (7 JS-points). Will be able to redirect all actions preformed by player A to player B.

Mr. Elton - just scum (4,5 JS-point)
Lady Catherine De Bourgh - just scum (4,5 JS-point)


Total of 22

[Ullz]

Jane Austen:

She's the author and will be able to write her own role. She'll have to choose between being Scum or Town before the game begins.
To fix the balance I'll make Charlotte Lucas a mason if Jane Austen wants to play Scum.
If she wants to be Town the Charlotte will remain vanilla and scum will receive an extra one shot kill to Wickham.

[Ullz]

Town:

Jane, Kitty and Mary Bennet (Charlotte Lucas) - masons (JS-points: 3 * 2,5 = 8,5)

Marianne Dashwood - tracker (JS-points 2). But this will be a mechanism and not an action. She'll be informed of the actions preformed by "Willoughby" but she'll not know who "Willoughby" is.

Elizabeth Bennet - one shot vig (JS-points 2). Every night she can try and kill a player. But the only one she can kill will be Wickham. All other kills will fail. She'll be informed of this but she will not be informed of the alignment of Wickham.

Fanny Price - Archangle (not sure about JS-points. But if a doc is 3 then I guess an angle will be 2 since she can't selfprotect).

Elinor Dashwood - name investigator (JS-points 4). In a game where almost all "evil" names is scum names a name investigator will be as good to town as a "real" investigator. Also because if she spots Willoughby then it will increase the value of the informations Elizabeth Bennet has.

Emma - paranoid doc (JS-points gives the doc 3 so I'm going with 2 since she'll block if she protects). However she will not block Elinor Dashwood since it's not an action but a mechanism in this game. Neither will be informed of this.

Total of power-roles: 20,5

+ 5 vanillas
= 25,5

[Ullz]

To help fix the balance I'll:

1. Provide scum with fake PM's and help them write others (and inform all players of this before the game begins)

2. Post a sample of the Town Vanilla PM for all to see

3. Allow actions to be posted to me before Night/Day. Any player will be allowed to submit actions when ever they want. They'll also be allowed to change any action before the Day begins.

4. Try and find someone to look this over

[Ullz]

Case A: Jane Austin is Scum

5 Scum
1. Blocker
2. Redirector
3. vanilla
4. vanilla
5. writer? Can she write in powers? Hopefully not, since that would not be a good idea.

She would be a vanilla scum with no powers what so ever.

13 Town
1.2.3. Masons
4. Tracker
5. Vig that can only kill one specific scum (quite nice for Town, especially since it is the redirector)
6. Archangel (no self protect doc)
7. Name Investigator (weaker than a detective since there is no notification that 'bad names' equate to scum.)
8. paranoid doc
9.10.11.12.13. vanilla

This is an 18 player game with 5 scum in it. I would worry that this set-up is too pro-scum.
JSP-SCUM = 26.5
JSP-TOWN = 24.5
Okay, maybe not too bad. But 5 scum with only 13 Town gives scum a huge advantage over the lynch, which we have not accounted for adequately lately. Typically it takes 5 to lynch on Day One!

This is a concern I didn't think about before. If scum voting together Day 1 would control the lynch, then it would indeed be unbalanced. I'll have to think about that some more!

Also. I don't know the genre so I'm going by your notes in the thread. You state: "In a game where almost all "evil" names is scum names a name investigator will be as good to town as a "real" investigator." Possibly true, but Town will be resistant to equate name to alignment. Also, "almost all scum" implies some of the scum names are "good." That would make these 'godfather' type roles, which is not accounted for in the JSP. (GF is +2.5 over a vanilla). So JSP is more like 29.

Opinion: Not Balanced.

All scum (except for Jane Austen if she chooses to play as scum) have "evil" names.
Also there would be 4 town masons in this case, because Charlotte Lucas would go from vanilla to mason, if Jane Austen pick the scum-role.

Case B: Jane is Town

4 Scum
1. Blocker
2. Redirector + Extra Kill
3. vanilla
4. vanilla
JSP-SCUM = 22 + (extra kill) + (GF)
extra kill is worth about 2
GF is worth about 2.5,
26.5 Total

14 Town
1.2.3. Masons
4. Tracker
5. Vig that can only kill one specific scum (quite nice for Town, especially since it is the redirector)
6. Archangel (no self protect doc)
7. Name Investigator (weaker than a detective since there is no notification that 'bad names' equate to scum.
8. paranoid doc
9.10.11.12.13. vanilla
14. Vanilla
JSP-TOWN = 25.5

This is 4 scum versus 14 Town, which looks more reasonable to me.

There would be 19 players in the game. So it wouldn't be 5 versus 13, but 5 versus 14 and 4 versus 15.
I'll try and make the set-up more clear in my next post

I think you need to revisit how you want to balance Jane's Choice. The way you have it now looks like this

Choose Scum:
Scum get +4.5 with addition of extra member (possibly more since going from 4 to 5 is a huge asset to scum power).
Town gets Nothing (You are shifting a vanilla to Mason to replace a Mason, the net effect is nothing)

Choose Town:
Scum get +2.5 with addition of extra kill
Town get +1.0 with addition of extra vanilla.

Scum benefit either way, but significantly more if Jane chooses scum.

[Ullz]

Case A: Jane Austin is Scum

5 Scum
1. Blocker
2. Redirector
3. vanilla
4. vanilla
5. vanilla


14 Town
1.2.3.4. Masons
5. Tracker
6. Vig that can only kill one specific scum (quite nice for Town, especially since it is the redirector)
7. Archangel (no self protect doc)
8. Name Investigator (weaker than a detective since there is no notification that 'bad names' equate to scum.)
9. paranoid doc
10.11.12.13.14. vanilla

This is an 19 player game with 5 scum in it.

[Ullz]

Case B: Jane is Town

4 Scum
1. Blocker
2. Redirector + Extra Kill
3. vanilla
4. vanilla

15 Town
1.2.3. Masons
4. Tracker
5. Vig that can only kill one specific scum (quite nice for Town, especially since it is the redirector)
6. Archangel (no self protect doc)
7. Name Investigator (weaker than a detective since there is no notification that 'bad names' equate to scum.
8. paranoid doc
9.10.11.12.13. vanilla
14. Vanilla
+ 15. Charlotte Lucas would remain vanilla town and not transform into the 4. mason

Also to balance things scum (Wickham) would have an extra one shot kill.

[Ullz]

If I leave Jane Austen out for a while and balance the rest of the game, then after that I can concentrate on balancing her role.

Scum:
Willoughby/Blocker - 6
Wickham/Redirector - 7
Elton/Vanilla - 4,5
Lady Catherine/Vanilla - 4,5
Total: 22

Town:
3 masons 8,5
Tracker (that see all actions) 2
One shot vig (that can't kill other than scum) 2
Archangle (can't selfprotect) 2
Name investigator 3,5
Paranoid doc 2
+ 6 nillas
Total: 26

But considering the fact that Day 1 lynch might be pull over by scum in a small game like this might make up for the difference in my balance??

[Ullz]

The balance of Jane Austen:

Case A - she plays as scum:
+ 4.5 to scum

Charlotte goes from vanilla to 4. mason:
- 1 to town (losing the vanilla)
+ 3 for a 4. mason
+ 3*0,5 because the other masons goes in power when they become 4
= 3.5 to town

AND scum don't have an extra kill
+ 1 to town

[Ullz]

The balance of Jane Austen:

Case B:
Jane plays a vanilla town
+ 1 to town
Charlotte stays vanilla

Scum get an extra kill (to Wickham)
+ 1 to scum

[sachertorte]

No

IF Jane wants to be town she'll be vanilla and Charlotte Lucas will stay vanilla as well.
BUT if Jane wants to play scum, Charlotte will be informed that she is now mason (but she'll not be informed WHY this has happened).

My thought was that if JA was scum, she'd be 4,5 to scum and Charlotte would go from 1 (vanilla) to a 3.5 mason while the rest of the masons would count extra 0.5 since there would now be 4 masons.

Huh? I thought Jane was a Mason?

Then Who are the masons?

Aug 3, 2010 7:27:55 GMT -5 Ullz said:

Town:

Jane, Kitty and Mary Bennet (Charlotte Lucas) - masons (JS-points: 3 * 2,5 = 8,5)

This part here really makes me think that Jane is a Mason.

[Ullz]

Aug 6, 2010 9:01:30 GMT -5 sachertorte said:

This part here really makes me think that Jane is a Mason.

I see that now. My fault.
The mason-Jane is a person from the books. Her name is Jane Bennet. She's a mason with her (in the book) sisters Kitty Bennet and Mary Bennet.
Sorry - I forgot that others can't read my mind like I do

[sachertorte]

Aug 6, 2010 3:23:30 GMT -5 Ullz said:

The balance of Jane Austen:

Case B:
Jane plays a vanilla town
+ 1 to town
Charlotte stays vanilla

Scum get an extra kill (to Wickham)
+ 1 to scum

An extra scum kill is worth significantly more than +1. If we look at it as expected value, then if Town holds 28 JSP, and there are 14 Town players, then the value of an extra scum kill is 28/14 = 2.
In other words, there is no way to guarantee that scum will kill a vanilla town. Furthermore, there is an argument that since scum direct their kill (not random) the value is even higher. I would point the extra scum kill as +2.5.

[sachertorte]

Aug 6, 2010 3:22:04 GMT -5 Ullz said:

The balance of Jane Austen:

Case A - she plays as scum:
+ 4.5 to scum

Charlotte goes from vanilla to 4. mason:
- 1 to town (losing the vanilla)
+ 3 for a 4. mason
+ 3*0,5 because the other masons goes in power when they become 4
= 3.5 to town

AND scum don't have an extra kill
+ 1 to town

No, you can't do that. You can't give town points for something you DON"T give to scum. Just give points to the side that gets something, otherwise you are double counting.

[sachertorte]

I think it is okay. The fact that no matter what Jane Austin chooses ends up being pro-Scum is a good thing. In other words, the game won't swing based on the choice. The game is balanced in other ways (many many town power roles and only 5 vanilla!). In other other words, we WANT the pointing power to be the same no matter what Jane chooses. And it doesn't have to be net zero.

The only remaining problem I have is that the 5th scum is significantly more powerful than JSP accounts for. I feel that with 5 scum you need to allow Town at least 5 mislynches. Currently your setup allows for 4.5. But you also have a 'can only kill a scum' vig, so that make things easier for Town. Not bad. Probably balanced.

If Jane Austin chooses Town, then you would have 4 scum and 15 town plus an extra kill.
Town needs 4 correct lynches to win.
Scum need 5 incorrect lynches to win (counting the extra kill). Yipes! That doesn't look too good for scum. Scum might need something a little bit more here. Again, the difference between 4 and 5 scum is significant. One extra kill might not cover that difference. Also, A Town player (Jane Austin) will know that she chose to be Town instead of scum, that is significant information. She should be able to conclude that the number of scum cannot exceed 4.

Also, I wouldn't put the extra kill on Wickham. That's too much scum power on one player. If that player gets killed early by luck (or vig kill!) then scum will be severely disabled all at once. If you can put the extra kill power on a different (vanilla) scum that would be more stable.

[Ullz]

Looks like all I have to do then, will be small adjustments.

I'll give the kill to Lady Catherine (vanilla mafioso) instead.

Most roles will be given by random.org - but the Jane Austen... I designed it with a certain player in mind and he has signed up. So I think it will be fair enough to give him it without random.org.
Since he'll be choosing the alignment himself.

I was thinking that the 4.5 mis-lynched compared with the fact that Town vig can't mislynch (and sort of know this or will be able to figure it out based on the role-PM) would balance each other out.
But I am a bit concerned that if the Town Vig claims to this, then Scum can redirect her for the rest of the game and there by making it impossible for her to kill anyone.
Should this be taken into consideration?